Triple J Hack interview with Avani Dias
14 October 2021
Subjects: University funding, international students, free speech code
AVANI DIAS:
Let’s speak to the Federal Education Minister, Alan Tudge. Thanks for coming back on Triple J, Minister.
ALAN TUDGE:
Absolute pleasure.
AVANI DIAS:
So if you were 18, Minister, right now, you’re about to finish school, you’re looking at your next steps in life. Unis have had to cut courses, because they’re struggling financially. Thousands of staff have lost jobs. Lots of lessons are online. Would uni be your first choice at the moment?
ALAN TUDGE:
Gosh, you just painted a very pessimistic view as to what's going on there, Avani. There’s, in fact, more opportunities at universities today than there ever has been in the history of Australia. This year alone, there’s five per cent more students who are doing university, and that will continue to grow next year. So that's what I'd say to Year 12s. There's many opportunities to go to university. There's also fantastic employment opportunities, by the way, if you want to go straight into work, because the youth unemployment rate is the lowest level in 12 years. And one of the big challenges we've got is actually on skills shortages. So if you want to go down that path, that's a great opportunity also. And of course, there's the vocational pathway as well, where we put in so much more money, and there's so many more opportunities as well. So I guess, Avani, going back to that original question, I am really optimistic for those Year 12s, because there has never been so many opportunities as there are today for them to pursue.
AVANI DIAS:
Minister, is that the case though? Looking at universities, so many courses have been cut across the board, at every university, from every faculty, basically: maths, science, arts, whatever. We're seeing those course cuts…
ALAN TUDGE:
No, that’s not true.
AVANI DIAS:
No, it is true. There are hundreds…
ALAN TUDGE:
No, that’s not true.
AVANI DIAS:
…is the sort of figure. Several unis, Macquarie Uni just cut maths and science courses. I mean, that's due to funding cuts according to those unis. So are you concerned about that?
ALAN TUDGE:
Well, again, it's not due to funding cuts either. So there's a couple of points which I’d just correct you on there. There's 802,000 students studying this year at our universities, compared to 763,000 last year. So that’s five per cent more. And they're doing courses in all sorts of things. And people know that, because they speak to their friends, or their sons and their daughters, and they know that they're still doing courses in all sorts of things. Universities are their own independent entities and they make decisions themselves as to what courses they might provide and what they won't provide. And some, of course, do make those decisions. I know in some cases, for example, they have reduced their language courses because they just simply don't have the demand for those anymore. But by and large…
AVANI DIAS:
Minister, to pick you up there, though. I'm taking Macquarie uni as an example, because they've had to cut maths and science courses. Do you acknowledge that COVID has been a really tough time for universities? They're not seeing the same levels of international students, and they're calling for more funding from your government? You acknowledge that they're in a bit of a crisis at the moment.
ALAN TUDGE:
I'd certainly acknowledge that universities are having a tough time from a financial perspective, and that is because our international borders have been closed since last March, which means we haven't had all of those international students coming into Australia. And international students, Avani, make up approximately 25 per cent of the entire revenue of our universities. So if you stop the international students coming in, yes, that does make a difference to their finances. Now, we've actually, come in from a government perspective and boosted up some of their finances to take account of that, including providing an additional $1 billion worth of research funding. And it means that overall, as of at least the end of last year, which the last full year of accounts that we've got, their revenue is down about five per cent compared to the previous year. So it's still not insignificant, but nor is it as dramatic as many other industries have faced throughout this COVID period.
AVANI DIAS:
Minister to jump in, though, looking at your own government data, it shows that in coming, years, uni funding is set to fall to its lowest level in more than a decade. That's government university funding. Do you acknowledge that, you know, unis are struggling, and they're calling for your support, and they're accusing you of not offering that money?
ALAN TUDGE:
Well, again, I don't know where you're getting those figures from, because this year, we're providing $20.4 billion.
AVANI DIAS:
[Interrupts] But it's your data, and it says $9.3 billion has been provided in the 2023/24 financial year. That's almost $2 billion less than it is expected to have spent this year. So that's clearly a funding cut.
ALAN TUDGE:
Well, that's $5.3 billion, which is about a quarter of the total amount which the government provides to our universities, which this year alone is $20.4 billion. And that's up from about 17 percent on just two years prior. Now, our funding is in a number of different ways. Some of it is direct grants to the universities in the form of research grants. Some of it is direct subsidies for courses. And of course, some of it comes via students, because we subsidise, effectively, their student loans as well. So all up, that comes to over 20 billion dollars this year, which is the record amount.
AVANI DIAS:
There is a lot of maths there, and obviously the figures are disputed, but Minister, what researchers are saying is that they're struggling. They've seen 17,000 job cuts at universities, which affects domestic students, Australians, who are looking at studying at uni. And they're saying: how are we going to make the next generation of researchers, nurses, doctors, people fighting issues like COVID? What do you say to those people?
ALAN TUDGE:
I don't deny it has been tough for our universities this year due to the decline in international students coming in, and secondly, due to the decline in their investment revenue. That's actually been the biggest hit on them, to be honest, because effectively, the global equity markets - the stock market globally suffered a big hit from COVID and it meant they weren't getting as much investment revenue. And so that's hit them as well as the decline in international students. That has had a flow-on effect, but they’re not alone.
AVANI DIAS:
[Talks over] It’s not just that, though, isn't it, Minister? It is your government as well.
ALAN TUDGE:
They’re not alone, and I'll come back to that in terms of what our government has done. But they're not alone. I mean, during this COVID pandemic - all of your listeners will know that so many industries have been here. I mean, the small business sector particularly has been hit very, very hard. I have people literally calling into my office, into my electorate office here in the outer east of Melbourne, in tears because their businesses are smashed.
AVANI DIAS:
Minister, we obviously know businesses have been smashed. We've talked about that a lot. We're here to talk about why young people are really concerned about signing up to a uni degree because of the expense, and they're concerned about the quality of the education. In terms of that international student issue that you've raised numerous times, what are you doing to attract international students back to Australia? Because we're hearing from them: well, I couldn't come to Australia for the past two years. I've gone to places like Canada, which managed to sort of roll out their vaccine and deal with COVID a lot faster than we have.
ALAN TUDGE:
Well, a couple of things. Firstly, just going back to your point, I'm very optimistic for people who are considering going to university next year because there'll be more opportunities than ever before for them to do so. So that’s the first point I'd make. Second point I’d make in terms of international students. They've been important for Australia in terms of providing revenue for our universities. They provide a workforce because often, they'll stay after they've studied, and even do some work while they're studying. And they do create a sense of people-to-people linkages, if you like, across countries, so that we build better relationships with those countries. So it's very important, and we do want to see those international students return. I'll come to this maybe in terms of how, in a different manner, that I'd like to see them come back when they do fully return. What are we doing? First thing is we’re rolling out the vaccine here, and we're now at over 80 per cent in terms of first dosage, and we’ll soon be at 80 per cent double dose. It means the economy can be open again, our international borders can be open again, and we can start having international students back. First thing.
Second thing is that we’re recognising different vaccines from around the world, and that includes the vaccines in China and the vaccines in India, which are different to the ones that we have here in Australia. That's important because they’re our two biggest source countries. Third thing we're doing is that we're trialling home-based quarantining. Why is that important? It's important both for international students, but also for returning Aussies, because if you're relying upon hotel quarantine, you end up with a bottleneck because there's only so many hotel beds available. If we have home-based quarantine…
AVANI DIAS:
[Talks over] Okay. So, Minister, so obviously-
ALAN TUDGE:
…you can get to having a lot more students come back in.
AVANI DIAS:
Sure. So do you expect by next year - because what the figures show is that they'll be a one-third drop in international students enrolling next year. That’s a significant drop. Do you feel like we'll be able to make that up in the next year? What's your sort of deadline there?
ALAN TUDGE:
I can't predict what the figures will be next year. At the moment, in terms of total international students enrolled in our universities, they’re down 17 per cent compared to the pre-pandemic levels of 2019. So, it's down a considerable amount. Many have, by the way, started their courses offshore. So they're enrolled in an Australian university, offshore, we're making sure their visas are all sorted out, and they’ll still get the same privileges once they open up…
AVANI DIAS:
Alright. Sure.
ALAN TUDGE:
Going into next year, my hope is that the pilots which we will have up and running this year will be successful, and then that we’ll start to get many thousands come back next year, Avani. That is my firm expectation. I think that next year is likely that we'll have back in the tens of thousands of international students. I can't guarantee that because there's still too many unknowns, but that would be my best guess.
AVANI DIAS:
You are listening to Hack. I'm Avani Dias, and we'll come back to the Minister Alan Tudge later in the program.
[Program plays other content]
AVANI DIAS:
So, one way unis will change going forward is to do with freedom of speech, interestingly. So the Government’s created a free speech code, saying if someone on a uni campus says something which offends or shocks someone, then they can still say it freely. It’s happening while the High Court has ruled the firing of a James Cook University academic for being a climate sceptic was allowed. Federal Education Minister Alan Tudge is still with us. Minister, your government's free speech code has just been adopted by every uni in the country. Can you give us some actual examples of views that you think are being silenced at universities that you're concerned about and trying to protect?
ALAN TUDGE:
First of all, let me explain the code. The code is something which I have insisted that each university adopt. Effectively, it protects academics and students from being able to speak freely without consequences. Now, it's not uninhibited. You can't, of course, intimidate people or harass people or defame people. But it does protect language which nevertheless might- someone might be a little bit insulted. Someone might be a bit offended. Someone might be shocked by your language. That language is protected.
AVANI DIAS:
Can you give us an example?
ALAN TUDGE:
Because, of course – and I’ll say the reasons why it's important that that be protected - because if you're debating or challenging someone's ideas, then you risk offending them in the process. Because they might hold their ideas very firmly, and you're challenging those ideas. But you need to be able to do that if you are to actually seek the truth and advance knowledge. That's how knowledge is advanced, by challenging pre-existing orthodoxies.
AVANI DIAS:
I don't think anyone disagrees with that idea. We all agree that challenging views is important, and it's how we all kind of learn and grow. So, what are the particular issues that you're feeling are being silenced at unis?
ALAN TUDGE:
I'll give you a couple of real examples which are occurring right now. One of which is a person that some of you may have heard of, which is Nick Coatsworth. Now, he was the former chief medical officer of the Federal Government. He is now, in part, a professor at Australian National University in Canberra, and has been making some remarks publicly to say that lockdowns shouldn't be as severe as what they have been introduced, particularly in Victoria. Because of some of those comments that he has been making, he's had people - academics - make complaints to him, and he's had formal letters written to him by the university administration cautioning him in relation to his language. Now, to me, that is just outrageous. This is a person with expertise, a former chief medical officer, we're at a time when we need to be debating these issues. He's got something to say, given his expertise. And yet because he's contrary to the predominant orthodoxy, he's being cautioned by the university administration. That shouldn't be occurring in my view. We should be able to have that free, robust speech. If you can't have free, robust speech at universities, where do you have free, robust speech?
AVANI DIAS:
Minister, that's a really interesting example. I'm conscious that we have to wrap up in a second, but I do want your thoughts on the case of Peter Ridd, who, for our audience, is a former James Cook Uni marine scientist. He was fired for what many say is climate change scepticism. He took that to the courts. The High Court has just upheld that. Is that the kind of free speech you're hoping to protect as well? That you know, climate change may not be an occurring situation?
ALAN TUDGE:
So how you described it is not quite correct. Peter Ridd was largely fired because of the disciplinary procedures, which he did not follow. The language which he actually used, which was being critical of some of his fellow academics at James Cook University, the High Court actually found that language was protected - that he was perfectly entitled to make those views, to challenge the fact that the Great Barrier Reef wasn't as bad as what some were saying it to be. Where he got into - where he got dismissed, which the High Court said was lawful, was in relation to the disciplinary procedures, including the confidentiality clauses which he breached. So it's quite a different matter in some respects. The High Court actually made very strong statements in relation to free speech.
AVANI DIAS:
Just to jump in though, Minister, to bring it back to this free speech code. So, do you believe that people questioning climate change should be protected and allowed to make those statements at universities? Is that the kind of view that you're hoping to protect, maybe putting the Peter Ridd case aside?
ALAN TUDGE:
Putting the Peter Ridd case aside - of course, academics should be able to challenge all science which is going on. They just should be able to challenge that..
AVANI DIAS:
[Talks over] It is science, though, isn't it? Facts, scientific facts, they're not opinions.
ALAN TUDGE:
They should be able to challenge. I mean, even when you look at the various climate change models, there's differences in the climate change models as to what the outcomes are likely to be. They all say that the Earth will get warmer, but there's variances in there, so there isn't a uniform position entirely across the scientific community. These have big repercussions in terms of public policy responses. So, of course they should be challenged so that we know that we can have certainty that we're actually getting the best possible advice and the best possible science. The only way we progress in society at all is by challenging ideas, debating them, seeking the truth. I mean, that’s [Indistinct]…
AVANI DIAS:
[Interrupts] I think we're all in pursuit of that Minister, and I am conscious of the time and I think we do need to wrap up. I'm sorry to cut you off there, but we have run out of time. Alan Tudge, thank you so much for joining us again on Hack.
ALAN TUDGE:
Absolute pleasure anytime.
AVANI DIAS:
Thanks so much.