Triple J Hack - Interview with Avani Dias
Subjects: Changes to National Curriculum draft;
AVANI DIAS
Alright, let’s hear what the Federal Education Minister thinks on this. Alan Tudge, thanks for joining us on Hack.
ALAN TUDGE:
Absolute pleasure.
AVANI DIAS:
Let's start with the changes proposed for history lessons in the National Curriculum. What are your specific concerns there?
ALAN TUDGE:
My concern is that the history curriculum, particularly that for Years 7 to 10, paints an overly negative view of Australia. Whereas, we've got a lot to be proud of, and we should be teaching the great things that have happened in Australia as much as we should our weaknesses and flaws, and some of the historical wrongs. I want to make sure there's a balance, but I want people to come out having learnt about our country with a love of it, rather than a hatred of it.
AVANI DIAS:
Minister, can you break down your concerns a little bit more, the sort of changes in regards to things like teaching about colonisation. It says “dispossession of lands by Europeans on the First Nations peoples of Australia”. So what's your concern about young people learning those sorts of things at schools?
ALAN TUDGE:
Some of those things I'm not concerned about. Certainly, in relation to what occurred in 1788, the arrivals of the First Fleet, people should learn about that, and they should learn the perspective from Indigenous people at that time as well. However, there’s things that I don't like such as, the way that ANZAC Day is presented, for example. Instead of ANZAC Day being presented as the most sacred of all days in Australia, where we stop, we reflect, we commemorate the 100,000 people who have died for our freedoms. Instead it's presented as a contested idea, right? ANZAC Day is not a contested idea, apart from an absolute fringe element in our society. That's just one example. The word contested itself is used nineteen times throughout the curriculum, i.e., it’s asking people to, instead of just accepting these for the things which they are, such as ANZAC Day, to really challenge them and to contest them. There’s different viewpoints on ANZAC Day. I don't know about that in relation to the vast majority of Australians.
AVANI DIAS:
Is history meant to be about teaching accuracy, as opposed to, the opinions of Australians. What do you think about that?
ALAN TUDGE:
It should be teaching accuracy, absolutely. The Year 7 to 10 history doesn't even mention Captain James Cook, a pretty significant person in the history of the world, and particularly significant for Australia; not mentioned. There's just one where it should be accurate. But of course, there should be opportunities to reflect from different perspectives, and particularly from an Indigenous perspective at times along our history. That is a good thing that, that reflection is done. Arguably we haven't done enough of that in the past. We've just got to get the balance right.
This country Avani, is a magnet that millions of people want to come to, right? Now why is that? It's not because we're this horrible, terrible, racist, sexist country. It's because we’re one of the greatest egalitarian, free countries in the world built upon generations, Avani.
AVANI DIAS:
Just to jump in, a lot of people, Minister, would probably disagree with some of those things. First Nations people have openly said that things like free and egalitarian may be something up for dispute. And they would argue that, perhaps the balance has been in the opposite direction, until now. That we've been teaching too much about post 1788, as opposed to what happened before that, or the effects of colonisation what do you say to those Indigenous Australians who are very concerned about that?
ALAN TUDGE:
A) I’d want to know which individuals you're referring to. B) I would ask you, name me a single country in the world, at any time in the world's history, which is not as free and as egalitarian as Australia is today.
AVANI DIAS:
Minister, I don’t think that's the concern here. The concern from especially Indigenous Australians, and also the national body which is creating the curriculum, is that history should reflect accuracy, and that First Nations people and how they've been treated post-colonisation, may not be reflected properly in the curriculum and should be taught accurately to Australians. Do you acknowledge that First Nations people have not been treated, perhaps, correctly since settlement after colonisation?
ALAN TUDGE:
I mean, of course, there's been some dreadful incidences in our history. Absolutely. You may not know this, before I was a Member of Parliament, I went and spent three years working with Noel Pearson up in Cape York Indigenous communities, and there was still a lot of deep hurt and trauma, I think, that people were suffering.
AVANI DIAS:
So Minister, do you acknowledge we should be teaching that to our kids at school?
ALAN TUDGE:
Of course, we should be teaching an accurate version of our history. I mentioned that before, that it is important to reflect upon the Indigenous perspective along the way and that has been incorporated into the draft. That's a good thing that those perspectives can be incorporated. My overall view is that the balance is out of whack in terms of downplaying modern Australia, downplaying Western civilisation, downplaying our liberal democracy, which has created so much wealth and opportunity for millions of people.
AVANI DIAS:
What would you like the balance, how would you like it to be shifted? You need to approve this new curriculum by the end of the year. What do you think the balance should be in how much we reflect the hurt, the trauma that a lot of First Nations people have experienced, as you acknowledge?
ALAN TUDGE:
I think that it should accurately reflect that, as I said, but equally, it should mention the great successes that we've had in modern Australia and how that came about. Students need to have an understanding of why it is that almost uniquely in the history of the world, Australia is such a wealthy, liberal, free egalitarian society. What has created that? Because if you understand that deeply, then you're not going to protect it, as a million Australians have through their military service, and 100,000 people have died in the protection of those things, into defending them. That's what I want to see particularly embedded in the national curriculum, which I'm not convinced is enough just yet.
AVANI DIAS:
Alan Tudge, before we let you go, we are about to wrap up, but I'm keen to know what you think about Scott Morrison. He took a RAAF VIP jet to Sydney on Friday to spend time at home with his family, including on Father's Day. He then returned to Canberra. Many people around Australia, are in lockdown; would love to see their families. Was the PM's trip a bad signal to send to the rest of the country?
ALAN TUDGE:
The Prime Minister addressed this earlier in the day. I mean, as you pointed out, that all of us who are in Canberra and I've been in Canberra for the last five weeks straight, returned to our homes at the end of the sitting period, which was on Friday night, and for him, he has to return to Canberra again, particularly for some of the National Security Committee meetings. Much of which can only occur in person.
AVANI DIAS:
Alan Tudge, should he be allowed to go home? Should you all be allowed to go home? A lot of workers are stuck where they are because they're in lockdown.
ALAN TUDGE:
The business of government still has to continue and this is the difficulty. Listen, I really feel for those people that are in lockdown. I'm from Melbourne. I've had a year and a half, like all Melburnians, of lockdown. But the business of government does need to go on. All parliamentarians had the right to go back to their homes, having been in Canberra for the sitting weeks to pass important legislation. It’s particularly very important for the Prime Minister to be back in Canberra, particularly for those meetings that you can only do in Canberra because of the security nature of them.
AVANI DIAS:
Minister Alan Tudge really appreciate you chatting to us on Hack, and hope that you'll come and join us and talk to young people again.
ALAN TUDGE:
Anytime, Avani, anytime.