Interview with Laura Jayes - Sky News AM Agenda
Subjects: Updated guidelines on protecting universities from foreign interference; international students returning; religious discrimination bill
LAURA JAYES:
Let's go live now to the Education Minister, Alan Tudge. This– interesting today, the Prime Minister focusing on critical infrastructure. You also put out updated guidelines yesterday to protect from foreign interference. Now, this has been somewhat watered down. Are you saying to universities, essentially, that they can't share research with Chinese counterparts?
ALAN TUDGE:
No. The guidelines don't say that. These have actually been strengthened, the guidelines, from the original version, which was put out about two years ago. They've been updated on advice from both the university sector and the Department of Home Affairs, working hand-in-glove together. And it provides just clearer guidance for the universities as to how to protect themselves from foreign interference.
Now, foreign interference Laura in the university sector is very, very serious. I mean, we've had ASIO itself say that there have been academics who have been threatened, family members threatened, universities coerced and threatened that they’ve have finances pulled by foreign actors.
And so, this is a serious issue. These guidelines provide clearer procedures and checks for universities to adhere to, and I think it will make that difference in terms of protecting our valuable research which does occur at the university level.
LAURA JAYES:
Could it be seen as a veiled threat? I mean, if universities don't abide by these guidelines, what happens down the track? Would you pull funding or support for them?
ALAN TUDGE:
Well listen, I've been speaking to the vice chancellors about this for many, many months now and, and my impression is that all of them are taking this very seriously. They've all been briefed as well, independently, by either Foreign Affairs or by my Department, so they know the seriousness of it. And we will be, of course, ensuring that those guidelines are administered well.
But of course, we're trusting universities to some extent as well. And I think that trust is warranted given the seriousness with which they, and their university councils, are taking on this.
LAURA JAYES:
What's this actual threat that you're talking about with universities?
ALAN TUDGE:
There's, there's no threat that I've mentioned, as such. Of course, we’ll be keeping a check to ensure that the guidelines have been adhered to, and I think Australians would expect that of us, but…
LAURA JAYES:
No. But my question is, I mean, why are you having these strengthened guidelines? What are you so concerned about when it comes to universities and what they might be vulnerable to?
ALAN TUDGE:
My apologies. Yeah. I mean, Laura, this has been made very clear by the Head of ASIO, who has said that, in essence, because of the value inherent in the leading-edge research which occurs in our universities, which leads, of course, to critical technological breakthroughs, to military breakthroughs, to intelligence breakthroughs and the like, they are under- they are subject to foreign interference and people trying to steal those ideas. And there have been examples which have been documented already by ASIO of academics and their families being threatened or intimidated. There have been examples of universities having their finances put at risk by foreign actors in relation to that. There's been examples of aggressive threats to steal the research at our universities. So those have been documented by ASIO itself. So, the issue is serious. The universities are taking it seriously, so I give them that credit, and they've worked cooperative with us and the Department of Home Affairs to come up with these revised guidelines, which I think will be able to give assurance to the Australian public that we're doing everything that we can to prevent foreign interference at the university level.
LAURA JAYES:
Universities are also pretty preoccupied at the moment about a big cash cow, and that is international students. 130,000 international students are currently locked out of Australia due to COVID. So, we're more than 80 per cent vaccinated as a country here in Australia. Under the National Cabinet plan, they should be back. Why aren't they?
ALAN TUDGE:
Well, my expectation is that they'll start to be coming back this year, and we'll certainly have tens of thousands come back next year is my expectation. We've got four jurisdictions who have already linked into this and said that they want to get cracking on this, and that's Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia, and at least get the pilots up and running as quickly as possible. But we'd like to obviously see those international students back quickly. But importantly, they have to come back in a safe manner where we don't see an increase in the spikes in infections, which, which may jeopardise our overall recovery.
LAURA JAYES:
Okay. So sure. What's still to be worked out, though? Because we're talking about only vaccinated international students? Are you talking about some kind of quarantine arrangement that will need to persist into next year?
ALAN TUDGE:
So, we’re just working through this, and my hope is, the answer is no to that question, and that people will be able to come in, in a similar manner to what Australians are coming in. But we’ve just got to carefully work through this. We’ve obviously opened the borders to Australians and permanent residents to come in, who are vaccinated without having to quarantine, and those people have been returning in their thousands. And so far that has gone down very well, and it hasn’t seen that spike in infections, and that’s consistent with the Doherty modelling. And so let’s just see what we can do in relation to other visa holders really, including international students, which are one of the biggest categories of, of visa holders off-shore.
LAURA JAYES:
[Talks over] Yeah. They need, they need a bit of time to prepare. I know, I know you’re working with different states. I mean, who knows what’s going to happen in WA, for example. But Alan Tudge, can you give us some kind of indication when you’ll have a firm answer so these students can start planning?
ALAN TUDGE:
Yeah, and we certainly do want to give that reassurance as soon as possible – we’re not in the position to do so just yet. But I would want to say that I’m very confident we’ll be able to get international students starting to come back this year, and certainly in very significant numbers next year.
LAURA JAYES:
Okay, let’s talk religious freedom laws. I was interested and somewhat surprised to see on the front page of The Australian newspaper this morning that this is being revisited by the Morrison Government. It was so contentious under Turnbull. It was dropped. Why are you picking it up this time around? And is it going to pass by the end of the year?
ALAN TUDGE:
Well, we're picking it up because this was an election commitment of ours, and so we plan on fulfilling that election commitment. And my hope is that it will pass by the end of the year, and I think that the bill, which is being struck by Michaelia Cash - building off the work of Christian Porter - is a good bill which addresses many of the concerns which people have raised. But critically does provide those protections for religious people to exercise their faith.
LAURA JAYES:
Yep.
ALAN TUDGE:
That is very, very important to millions of people, and this will be an important bill which we hope will get, get through the Senate this year.
LAURA JAYES:
So, it upholds the right, for example, to employ- for a Catholic school or a religious school to employ teachers of their own faith. But what if a Catholic school rejects a teacher because they're gay, for example? Where does the balance come out there?
ALAN TUDGE:
Yeah. Well, that wouldn't be lawful under our bill.
LAURA JAYES:
Okay.
ALAN TUDGE:
So, the bill will certainly allow religious schools to employ people of their own faiths. Now this is a critical principle at stake here, because you know, Laura, you can't be a Catholic school if you can't employ Catholic teachers. You can't be a Muslim school without employing Muslim teachers.
LAURA JAYES:
Sure.
ALAN TUDGE:
It’s having the ability to do so. Now, that has been under threat, it's particularly been under threat by the Labor Government here in my home state of Victoria, where they have legislation which would actually prohibit that occurring, which is just a further mechanism to undermine Catholic and other religious schools. So we plan on protecting that very critical right for schools to be able to employ teachers of their own faith…
LAURA JAYES:
Well that's fine, but are you saying that…
ALAN TUDGE:
… and overriding, and overriding that state legislation, where required.
LAURA JAYES:
All right. Well, are you saying a Catholic school has the right to discriminate against a Muslim teacher? I mean, what's your religion got to do with teaching maths, for example?
ALAN TUDGE:
Laura, it goes to the overall values of the individual. And if a school has a set of religious values which they are imparting, then they should be able to employ teachers who have values consistent with those articulated principles. And that's always been the case, Laura, and no one's suggested there’s been a significant problem here. In fact, if anything, families have been voting with their feet in increasing numbers, choosing independent and Catholic schools over time - particularly at the secondary level - and paying money in order to do that. So, let's just enable those schools to continue to do the good work which they have been doing, which is providing a good education consistent with the values which they articulate. And we plan in enshrining that in the legislation.
LAURA JAYES:
Alan Tudge, thank you. We'll speak soon.
ALAN TUDGE:
Thanks very much, Laura.