Interview - Triple J Hack with Ange McCormack

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ANGE MCCORMACK:

So last week on Hack, you might remember we were talking about apprentices. And we heard so many horrific stories about abuse and bullying that young apprentices go through. A Triple J listener called up to say he’d been set on fire by his boss. And we heard lots of other stories, too. Take a listen back. 

[Excerpt] 

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER:

Mostly verbal abuse from the boss. We were used for cheap labour. For the first week I got there, I realised that the place was really unsafe. 

But within months, it didn’t matter what I did. I was just treated so bad. I had three panic attacks in one week, because my employer had just been bullying me all day, talking down to me. You know, I had a hammer being thrown in my head. 

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER:

I honestly said to the agency I was working for: I need you to get me out of here, because I feel like someone’s going to actually die here. And unfortunately, what I said came through. 

REPORTER:

Dillon Wu’s family is struggling to comprehend why he died. 

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER:

And then the next employer I had wasn’t that much better, so I then left them and I went to the third one, and the same sort of stuff happened again and again. 

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER:    

I got set on fire and actually locked inside a small container room. And I wasn't allowed to seek medical attention for a while until the second shift came in and actually took me to the hospital. I had skin dripping of my hand. And yeah, it was it was a pretty big wreck. 

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER:

They set my boots on fire a couple of times as a joke. And it was just part of the ritual, I guess. And I was fixing the machine and he covered me in a substance called Brakleen, which is a very, very flammable substance. And I just sort of ignored it, trying to do my work and next minute I was on fire on the ground. 

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER:

The way it is, abuse is the way we are. We’ve just got to get through it and get it to the end. 

[End of excerpt]

ANGE MCCORMACK:

If you're an apprentice, I want to hear from you. How have you been treated on the job? Text me 0439-757-555. 

Last week, the Government announced heaps of money for apprentices in their budget, so let's put some questions to the Federal Minister in charge. Stuart Robert is the Minister for Employment and Skills. Minister Robert, thanks for joining me. Now, last week, we heard all of these horrific stories from young apprentices. Someone was set on fire by their boss, is what they said. Hazing culture is rife for these workers. But you're urging young people to become apprentices. After hearing those stories, why would anyone want to be one?

MINISTER ROBERT:

Oh, it’s bit harsh. There's always going to be, unfortunately, bad workplaces. That's why we have the police. That’s why we have the police [indistinct]…

ANGE MCCORMACK;

[Interrupts] But being set on fire. 

MINISTER ROBERT:

Yeah, it’s clearly unacceptable. No question about it. No one's excusing that sort of abhorrent behaviour. But you can't say that young people don't want to be apprentices. 143,000 apprentices in the last nine months have signed up, across 58,000 workplaces because of the Boosting Apprenticeship Commencements. And we want to see that really grow. And today's numbers you’re seeing coming out are superb. Youth unemployment down 1.1 per cent, the lowest level in 12 years. That's really exciting. Over 23,000 extra thousand young people in work in the last month. So I think young people are voting with their feet and they're getting out there and having a crack.  

ANGE MCCORMACK;

Just on that culture of hazing and harassment that I was talking about before, though. We know that's rife. Young people tell us all the time about that culture. It's not new. It's been going on for a long time. Doesn't the Government have a duty to step in and clean it up?

MINISTER ROBERT:

We want to see employees have good workplaces, and good workplaces get productive outcomes, and great employers know that. Poor employers, if they’re doing that sort of behaviour, it's against the law and it will be dealt with. There's no question about that. There is zero tolerance for that sort of rubbish. But the numbers today in terms of the job numbers says that Australians, especially young Australians, they're getting into work and they're getting into work in greater numbers.

ANGE MCCORMACK:

On the fact that some of these things that we're talking about are criminal, your advice is to obviously go to police for some of that severe abuse. But young workers feel like they can't. They feel like they're trapped. They feel like they'll lose their jobs if they speak up and, you know, report to their boss. Often, they're not in big companies. They're employed by people who are sole traders. There's no HR department in these businesses.

MINISTER ROBERT:

Young people, in my experience, know their rights very, very well. And they put their hand in the air when behaviour is poor and they should continue to do so. And they should continue to call out poor behaviour, as we all should.

ANGE MCCORMACK:

Minister, there’s calls for employers who take on apprentices to have to be licenced to make sure that they're doing the right thing so that they're not exploiting workers, so we can sort of nip this behaviour in the bud, I suppose. Do you support that idea?

MINISTER ROBERT:

No, I don't. I expect employers to do the right thing. I expect employees to treat all staff…

ANGE MCCORMACK:

[Interrupts] But we're hearing that they're often not doing the right thing.

MINISTER ROBERT:

I don't question that there are some bad employers and they need to be called out. Their behaviour to be called out. But most employers are doing the right thing. Most employers are out there giving young people a crack. And today's job numbers demonstrate that. Unemployment down to 5.5 per cent, youth unemployment the lowest level in 12 years. These are things we should say: you know what? The Government's plan is working. We need to back that plan in. Poor employers will always be found out. And right now, with the skills shortages, if there are young people who aren't happy with their employers, they should move because there's a whole bunch of other employers waiting to get a good staff.

ANGE MCCORMACK:

Minister, on unemployment rates. As you’ve just mentioned, they have improved. More young people are employed today than before the pandemic. But JobKeeper, crucially, has just ended. How are you going to make sure the figures stay at this rate, or ideally get even lower?

MINISTER ROBERT:

Well, JobKeeper ended and the figures today represent the first full month after JobKeeper, and they show 33,800 more full time employment. They show that youth unemployment increased in April when the JobKeeper ended by 23,600, and of course, the lowest level in 12 years of youth unemployment. I think that shows the Government's plan is working.

ANGE MCCORMACK:

But is that sustainable over, say, the next 12 months, for example? That first month is a good example, but is that going to continue?

MINISTER ROBERT:

Well, we'll continue to work hard. There were many sectors of society and many media broadcasters predicting there'd be a huge cliff and we shouldn’t withdraw it. Well these numbers show that the Government withdrew it at just the right time in the right way, and we’ll continue to work hard to ensure we can skill and train Australians for the myriad of jobs out there, highest number of job advertisements in 12 years right now. Great opportunity for young Australians.

ANGE MCCORMACK:

In line with employment figures going up, wages are supposed to grow with that as well, but we aren't seeing wages going up or rising. What's your Government doing to address the stagnant wages that we're seeing?

MINISTER ROBERT:

Wages will grow when productivity grows, and of course, when unemployment continues to come down. So the not accelerating inflation rate of unemployment is probably around 4.5 per cent., and perhaps even lower, and that's where full employment will start to see wage rises going up. So the best thing we can do and what the budget has done is to ensure that there are sufficient funds there to train and skill Australians so they get employed. And as that unemployment rate continues to come down, that's when we'll start to see wages growth.

ANGE MCCORMACK:

You're listening to Hack on Triple J. I’m Ange McCormack. With me is Stuart Robert, Minister for Employment. Minister, I want to talk about JobMaker. That's the plan the Government was pushing last year. It was predicted to create 450,000 jobs, but it actually only created about a thousand. How can we trust the Government's economic modelling on these measures?

MINISTER ROBERT:

We thought that boosting the apprenticeship commencements we’d have 100,000 in 12 months. We've got 100,000 in five months. So we uncapped it and there’s now 143,000, and we've just added 170,000 extra on top of that, as well as we've doubled JobTrainer with another billion dollars. So there are always going to be some areas of what we try to live up to the great expectations we have and other areas we try which exceed all our expectations.

ANGE MCCORMACK:

So was JobMaker a failure, essentially?

MINISTER ROBERT:

We try a range of initiatives, and some work really well, like Boosting Apprenticeship Commencements and JobTrainer, and we've doubled down on those. And others don't do as well as we'd like them to do.

ANGE MCCORMACK:

Minister, to go back to apprentices and your plan to get more apprentices in there, in that industry, a big part of your plan is to give employers incentives to hire apprentices. But what about incentives to the employees, to the apprentices themselves? Labor's putting up this plan to give cash to apprentices to get them in the job and finishing their qualifications.

MINISTER ROBERT:

Well, we've announced another 170,000 apprenticeships under the Boosting Apprenticeship Commencements. We've announced up to $10,000 for relocation to young Australians who actually take up the opportunity of work and need to move. And of course, we've increased all the wage subsidies up to $10,000 across transition to work, ParentsWorks, and Jobactive. And we think that's the right series of moves. There are 122,000 young people right now. We're not going to be paying a young person to get a job. We want them to lean in and take that job, because we know it's in their best interest to do it. If they need to move, we’ll absolutely cover their relocation costs.

ANGE MCCORMACK:

Right. About half of these apprentices, sorry, aren't completing their qualifications. What are you doing to make sure that these workers actually go through the program, finish and come out fully skilled?

MINISTER ROBERT:

Well, I'd like workers to take personal responsibility for their lives, can I say. I'd like them to take responsibility for ensuring they complete their apprenticeships as much as they possibly can, because a job is the best access to a great life. And we want them to get skills. And the higher skilled they are, the more likely they are to live a better life as they move forward.

ANGE MCCORMACK:

Stuart Robert, thanks so much for joining me on Triple J.

MINISTER ROBERT:

Great to talk to you.